Having children & Misc. Discussions that might spin off!

[athena]

This is a spin off from Single by Choice thread.

What are the risks of having children? what are your fears?

Kochun mentioned that his fren, although married for ten years, did not hv children for the fear that the child might come out deformed.

What do you think?

[SS2006]

This is a spin off from Single by Choice thread.

What are the risks of having children? what are your fears?

Kochun mentioned that his fren, although married for ten years, did not hv children for the fear that the child might come out deformed.

What do you think?
Do you stop eating fish for the fear that you might choke on the bone?
Do you stop driving for the fear that might get involved in road accident?
Do you stop breathing for fear that the air might be tainted?:eek:
There's risk in everything. Take calculated risk...with the medical progress nowadays, there's little to be worried about as long as you go for regular check-up.
For me, i was more than ready when i was pregnant with my 1st child. 2 of my colleagues in my office were pregnant at the same time. Seeing them discussing and sharing their experience made me want to experience the joy of pregnancy too. That time i was not married yet, but i told my hubby (then bf) i also want to have a baby.:eek:
ooopps...just saw kc's post...i think he meant it differently....doctor advised against pregnancy maybe due to some genetic factor. If like that, then better not to get a baby as the calculated risk is very high. No point giving birth to a human being and watching the person suffer.

[daBoss]

ok... my personal experience...

for me, i've always wanted 3 kids... sometimes i would think 2 is enough but... deep inside, 3 sounded just right...

my fears... even though i know i want to have children, nagging doubts were:
1. would they come out normal? so during the checks at the doctor, we would go for all the checks and scans... thank God all ok... also, when my first 2 were delivered, i would immediately go over and check - 5 fingers, 2 hands, 2 legs, etc... :)
2. enough money to raise them and give them a proper chance in life or not - nowadays, we're going global... and i really think in 10-20 years time, it's be really difficult to make a decent living - you have to compete with the rest of the world instead of only within malaysia...
3. got enough time or not... dunno how much time i have to spend with them to raise them up properly... even before i was sent to singapore, sometime when i get back home, dagirl would already be asleep... :(
4. got enough patience or not... ask dalady... i'm one of the most impatient people around... and i'm ashamed to say that it's always those that i'm closest with that suffer my temper... sorry ah dalady... i luv u... :)

[alfred98]

This is a spin off from Single by Choice thread.

What are the risks of having children? what are your fears?

Kochun mentioned that his fren, although married for ten years, did not hv children for the fear that the child might come out deformed.

What do you think?
The risk of having babies is age related, the higher the age the higher the risk...
at 35 yrs risk of down syndrome is 1 in 250, 40yrs risk 1 in 80 then the highest is 45yrs 1 in 25 to 35 that is very high...So the longer U wait the worst it becomes...
Now adays technology can help detect abnormalities using ultrasound machine..but not 100% accurate..If wanted this expecially if u dropped in the high risk group then go for CVS or later around 15 weeks amniocentesis....

[daBoss]

isn't amniocentesis risky to the baby?

[Odysseus]

ok... my personal experience...

for me, i've always wanted 3 kids... sometimes i would think 2 is enough but... deep inside, 3 sounded just right...

my fears... even though i know i want to have children, nagging doubts were:
1. would they come out normal? so during the checks at the doctor, we would go for all the checks and scans... thank God all ok... also, when my first 2 were delivered, i would immediately go over and check - 5 fingers, 2 hands, 2 legs, etc... :)
2. enough money to raise them and give them a proper chance in life or not - nowadays, we're going global... and i really think in 10-20 years time, it's be really difficult to make a decent living - you have to compete with the rest of the world instead of only within malaysia...
3. got enough time or not... dunno how much time i have to spend with them to raise them up properly... even before i was sent to singapore, sometime when i get back home, dagirl would already be asleep... :(
4. got enough patience or not... ask dalady... i'm one of the most impatient people around... and i'm ashamed to say that it's always those that i'm closest with that suffer my temper... sorry ah dalady... i luv u... :)

Fully agree with you :eek:

[LiLiaN]

since i haven't really been thinking about children and having children issue...
i'm just raising a point given by a speaker during our symposium last monday...

should we really be continuously screening for disease and eliminating them..?
especially for genetics predisposed conditions...
there must be some reason why the condition persisted in the population...
it could be social - i.e. community that has a lot of intermarriage between the people...
or it could be natural - i.e. the condition is maintained because it had certain advantage...

say, in africa, the sickle cell anemia, it's a major disease but its allele is maintained in population...
the reason for this is because it gives protection against sleeping sickness...

so for medical condition which underlying cause is not properly understood...
if we screen to eliminate everything now... what is the consequences..?
we cannot foresee it just yet but what if it's detrimental and leads to extinction..?

[dragoncity99]

In my opinion, fears:

1. Can i teach my son/daughter to be good ppl or not :( Parents are like the paint brush that's going to write a story on a white piece of paper how the children behave.

2. Can i support them financially before i retire? Getting anak at late 40s? Wah lau......

3. Are they healthy kids? Parents very pain in the heart when they see children sick

We cannot pick our children to born o not lah, abortion is another big problem morally...just got to discuss this with my mum during CNY.....

If they are deform, parents must still take care of them. They are the flesh and blood. They must never be measured in a manner like a product u can buy in pasar malam or Giant supermarket.

[KoChun]

Shirlene, any couples would like to have children, that I have no doubt. However, my friend has been advised by the doctor that his blood and his wife's blood clashes. Don't ask me what this means because I simply don't know. Maybe the doctors here can help to explain.

[LiLiaN]

i think this could be the case of rhesus negative blood...
it may cause complication, but plenty of people have children without problem...
just need to keep an eye on the pregnancy carefully...
here's something i found from wikipedia...


Another characteristic of blood is Rhesus factor or Rh factor. It is named after the Rhesus monkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhesus_Macaque), in which the factor was first identified by Landsteiner. Someone either has or does not have the Rh factor on the surface of their red blood cells. This is indicated as + or -, and the two groups are described as Rh positive (Rh+) or Rh negative (Rh-), respectively. This is often combined with the ABO type. Type O+ blood is most common, though in some areas type A prevails, and there are other areas in which as many as 80 percent of the people are type B.


Matching the Rhesus factor is very important, as mismatching (an Rh positive donor to an Rh negative recipient) may cause the production in the recipient of an antibody to the Rh(D) antigen, which could lead to subsequent hemolysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemolysis). This is of particular importance in females of or below childbearing age, where any subsequent pregnancy may be affected by the antibody produced. For one-off transfusions, particularly in older males, the use of Rh(D) positive blood in an Rh(D) negative individual (who has no atypical red cell antibodies) may be indicated if it is necessary to conserve Rh(D) negative stocks for more appropriate use. The converse is not true: Rh+ patients do not react to Rh- blood.


Rh disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh_disease) occurs when an Rh negative mother who has already had an Rh positive child (or an accidental Rh+ blood transfusion) carries another Rh positive child. After the first pregnancy, the mother develops IgG antibodies against Rh+ red blood cells, which can cross the placenta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placenta) and hemolyse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemolysis) the red cells of the second child. This reaction doesn't always occur and is less likely to occur if the child carries either the A or B antigen and the mother does not. In the past, Rh incompatibility could result in stillbirth or death of the mother. Rh incompatibility was until recently the most common cause of long term disability in the United States. At first, this was treated by transfusing the blood of infants who survived. At present, it can be treated with certain anti-Rh(+) antisera, the most common of which is Rhogam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhogam) (anti-D). It can be anticipated by determining the blood type of every child of a RhD- mother; if it is Rh+, the mother is treated with anti-D to prevent development of antibodies against Rh+ red blood cells.


ABO blood type incompatibilities between the mother and child do not cause a similar problem because antibodies to the ABO blood groups are of the IgM type, which do not cross the placenta.

[dragoncity99]

Shirlene, any couples would like to have children, that I have no doubt. However, my friend has been advised by the doctor that his blood and his wife's blood clashes. Don't ask me what this means because I simply don't know. Maybe the doctors here can help to explain.

i think this could be the case of rhesus negative blood...
it may cause complication, but plenty of people have children without problem...
just need to keep an eye on the pregnancy carefully...
here's something i found from wikipedia...

Hello leng lui, does this mean they are related? Kakilang?

[LiLiaN]

no, not related... just blood rhesus group different i think...
majority of people have rhesus positive group...
but if one partner is rhesus negative, this could be passed on to child...
if mother and child have different rhesus group, this could cause immune rejection...

consanguin (i.e. blood relative "sharing" blood) is different...
there's usually different type of complication, due to sharing close genetic makeups...
so disease/condition where it requires (usually, not always the case) 2 recessive alleles...
the probability of the child to inherit from carrier parents are much higher than normal...

[Dino]

I think personally, i am selfish therefore will make a hopeless dad and hubby.

[dragoncity99]

I think personally, i am selfish therefore will make a hopeless dad and hubby.
Don't say like that Dino, :)

Mebbe u haven't show ur fatherly instinct yet ma :)

If a man can explore his heart and know that the thing is not right, he who regrets is a father and hubby who notice his role and responsibilites.

Ur actions shows jahat-ness but i believe inside, u have an angel telling u that there is a word call father and hubby.

[LiLiaN]

not sure if there's any interest but the basis behind complications arising from consanguinity...

firstly, two closely related individual (e.g. first cousins) got together and have kids... according to simple genetic rules...
for most trait that we show, there are two alleles involved - one from father, one from mother...
e.g. gene for tallness : TT for two tall genes; Tt for one short, one tall; tt for two short genes...
so depending on what one's parents have, inheritance will be determined by it...

now, say, particular disease is recessive, i.e. "ss" genes present to be sick...
if both parents are carriers, their genes are "Ss" and can pass either "S" or "s" to child...
if lucky, get "SS", child will be healthy and likewise, if unlucky, "ss" will get sickness...

in any natural population, there has been notable disease genes...
usually they are masked by dominant gene, so not affecting the person...
however, intermarriage between blood relatives, chances of both as carriers are higher...
mixing disease gene to high frequence will cause the disease to be manifested...

sometimes, other factors may also influence how the disease is manifested...
especially, by the sex chromosomes X and Y... females have XX and males have XY...
unluckily for males, this means they are more predisposed to genetic disease...
the females have 50-50 chance of getting a disease where X is an influence...
for males, if X carries disease genes, then he's definitely getting it...
unfortunately, this also mean the mother is definitely the culprit for passing on defective gene...

of course not everything is straight forward... and this is just a very simplified version...

[Dino]

Don't say like that Dino, :)

Mebbe u haven't show ur fatherly instinct yet ma :)

If a man can explore his heart and know that the thing is not right, he who regrets is a father and hubby who notice his role and responsibilites.

Ur actions shows jahat-ness but i believe inside, u have an angel telling u that there is a word call father and hubby.

Maybe it'll show when i am 50....but when i have a kid at that age....have to care for mongoloid...die i tell you....sure die wan....:confused:

[dragoncity99]

Maybe it'll show when i am 50....but when i have a kid at that age....have to care for mongoloid...die i tell you....sure die wan....:confused:

Aiseh no need one kua, time flies like a Jetplane... :)

Wont die one, Armagaeddon is in 2454 mah. Hahahaha ;)

Everything is going to be fine one.

You are very successful oledi oh, u got kids and wife and so many friends here.
All these are the seeds that u have sown in every inch loh in paddy field.

Me, i got myself alone nia still jual VCD at pasar malam.:o

Oki better not crap around or slack from the topic. So soli everyone

[SS2006]

not sure if there's any interest but the basis behind complications arising from consanguinity...

firstly, two closely related individual (e.g. first cousins) got together and have kids... according to simple genetic rules...
for most trait that we show, there are two alleles involved - one from father, one from mother...
e.g. gene for tallness : TT for two tall genes; Tt for one short, one tall; tt for two short genes...
so depending on what one's parents have, inheritance will be determined by it...

now, say, particular disease is recessive, i.e. "ss" genes present to be sick...
if both parents are carriers, their genes are "Ss" and can pass either "S" or "s" to child...
if lucky, get "SS", child will be healthy and likewise, if unlucky, "ss" will get sickness...

in any natural population, there has been notable disease genes...
usually they are masked by dominant gene, so not affecting the person...
however, intermarriage between blood relatives, chances of both as carriers are higher...
mixing disease gene to high frequence will cause the disease to be manifested...

sometimes, other factors may also influence how the disease is manifested...
especially, by the sex chromosomes X and Y... females have XX and males have XY...
unluckily for males, this means they are more predisposed to genetic disease...
the females have 50-50 chance of getting a disease where X is an influence...
for males, if X carries disease genes, then he's definitely getting it...
unfortunately, this also mean the mother is definitely the culprit for passing on defective gene...

of course not everything is straight forward... and this is just a very simplified version...
Another well known case...hemophilia
a sex-linked hereditary blood defect that occurs almost exclusively in males and is characterized by delayed clotting of the blood and consequent difficulty in controlling hemorrhage even after minor injuries ...
happened in the England royal family where the defective gene came from Queen Elizabeth or Victoria (:unsure: ), since they had inter-marriage within the royal blood, most male royals from that family tree had the disease.

[athena]

Another well known case...hemophilia
a sex-linked hereditary blood defect that occurs almost exclusively in males and is characterized by delayed clotting of the blood and consequent difficulty in controlling hemorrhage even after minor injuries ...
happened in the England royal family where the defective gene came from Queen Elizabeth or Victoria (:unsure: ), since they had inter-marriage within the royal blood, most male royals from that family tree had the disease.
not to mention to the Tzar Nicholas II's son......end of the Romanovs!!

If leaving blood disorders aside, rhesus prob is easily 'rectified' (not the best choice of words) wat order factors come to play when u decide to hv a child?

gender is def one...

would you play good sum of money to get a 'designer' baby if you could?

[alfred98]

isn't amniocentesis risky to the baby?
The risk is around 1 in 200 procedures...that will be mostly aborted....calculated risk..

[Voon Chan]

before that, I think there will be a double/triple blood tests. Am I right to say that doctor
The risk is around 1 in 200 procedures...that will be mostly aborted....calculated risk..

[SS2006]

The risk is around 1 in 200 procedures...that will be mostly aborted....calculated risk..
I think daboss meant the test itself is risky towards the baby...too intrusive.

[Fishingman]

I think daboss meant the test itself is risky towards the baby...too intrusive.
I agree, don't play play man, I would never risk anything that would pose a danger to the baby or mother.

[Voon Chan]

In my opinion it is a calculated risk. I agree, don't play play man, I would never risk anything that would pose a danger to the baby or mother.

[noname]

ok... my personal experience...

for me, i've always wanted 3 kids... sometimes i would think 2 is enough but... deep inside, 3 sounded just right...

my fears... even though i know i want to have children, nagging doubts were:
1. would they come out normal? so during the checks at the doctor, we would go for all the checks and scans... thank God all ok... also, when my first 2 were delivered, i would immediately go over and check - 5 fingers, 2 hands, 2 legs, etc... :)
2. enough money to raise them and give them a proper chance in life or not - nowadays, we're going global... and i really think in 10-20 years time, it's be really difficult to make a decent living - you have to compete with the rest of the world instead of only within malaysia...
3. got enough time or not... dunno how much time i have to spend with them to raise them up properly... even before i was sent to singapore, sometime when i get back home, dagirl would already be asleep... :(
4. got enough patience or not... ask dalady... i'm one of the most impatient people around... and i'm ashamed to say that it's always those that i'm closest with that suffer my temper... sorry ah dalady... i luv u... :)
i agreed with you about this one. i worry about it now... planning :D

[SS2006]

In my opinion it is a calculated risk.
Only high risk mothers ie. @>35 yrs old should go for this test.

[TingMS]

my home minister mentioned this when the misi brought the little rascal to her bed the first time after the delivery , 'each baby born healthy is a miracle itself..' and she cried... :laugh:

[alfred98]

Shirlene, any couples would like to have children, that I have no doubt. However, my friend has been advised by the doctor that his blood and his wife's blood clashes. Don't ask me what this means because I simply don't know. Maybe the doctors here can help to explain.
So far very few diseases which a couple cannot have babies but if incompatible blood like RH incompatiblity usually not a big problem nowadays. The worst is Thalasemia but still the is a will there is a way..Now there is this technique called Pregestational Diagnosis(PGD)..That is before conception the morula cells are tested for abnormalites and sex also can then onli the good blastocyst being transfered in the uterus and hope the ladies get pregnant...
So to answer KC question is there nothing in the world we human saID CANNOT get pregnant one...
i think this could be the case of rhesus negative blood...
it may cause complication, but plenty of people have children without problem...
just need to keep an eye on the pregnancy carefully...
here's something i found from wikipedia...
Yah! No problem with this rhesus lor...easy onli...

[alfred98]

not to mention to the Tzar Nicholas II's son......end of the Romanovs!!

If leaving blood disorders aside, rhesus prob is easily 'rectified' (not the best choice of words) wat order factors come to play when u decide to hv a child?

gender is def one...

would you play good sum of money to get a 'designer' baby if you could?
Wah this is new!!!!!

[athena]

Wah this is new!!!!!
haha...not out yet...but since lil is studying genetics..maybe she can over more info on this

[Fishingman]

All through my wife's pregnancy, I prayed for the well being of both mother and baby. I would put 1st priority on health and not so much of beautiful baby-lah, skin white white-lah and etc. If you watched the documentary 'in the womb' then you will really see what a miracle it is.

[alfred98]

before that, I think there will be a double/triple blood tests. Am I right to say that doctor
Yah there is but expensive lor..It just give U the chances of getting this and that not very reliable for clinically practices. Singaporean this test is compulsory lah...Just because the ruler looks like mongaliod then the whole singaporean had to undergo this test...What the fish also....Still the amniocentesis and CVS are the most accurate but with a risk...
I think daboss meant the test itself is risky towards the baby...too intrusive.
Everything we do there is a risk including crossing the road and drive there is a risk...Can't take this risk then don't do lor...We onli advice so and so test avaiable and so and so risk is there. Then the parents had to decide what is the best for then...If you ask me personally I also don't want to do this test ok...

[alfred98]

haha...not out yet...but since lil is studying genetics..maybe she can over more info on this
That's the future and people are talking about ethical issue on this like clonning...Imagine your babies are actually U not your wife gen ok but your 100% copy of you!!!

[SS2006]

Yah! No problem with this rhesus lor...easy onli...
Zazu did explain this before...no prob now. Only olden days got complication where the baby got rejected by the mother's antibody.
Everything we do there is a risk including crossing the road and drive there is a risk...Can't take this risk then don't do lor...We onli advice so and so test avaiable and so and so risk is there. Then the parents had to decide what is the best for then...If you ask me personally I also don't want to do this test ok...
If low risk group then dun do it lorr...it's up to doctor to advise whether necessary to go for the test or not...we layman follow doc's advise only....
That's the future and people are talking about ethical issue on this like clonning...Imagine your babies are actually U not your wife gen ok but your 100% copy of you!!!
I think people who want a clone of themselves have superiority complex!:squeeze:

[alfred98]

Shirlene! I think one of then is Your place minister lor..Wanted to clone one like him the son still not good enough for him!!!!:laugh:

[SS2006]

Shirlene! I think one of then is Your place minister lor..Wanted to clone one like him the son still not good enough for him!!!!:laugh:
Sensitive...sensitive....later i get kicked out from this place:worried:

[alfred98]

Sensitive...sensitive....later i get kicked out from this place:worried:
No name whor!!!:laugh:

[LiLiaN]

haha...not out yet...but since lil is studying genetics..maybe she can over more info on thiswell, as far as i know, designer babies is not quite there yet...
currently, what that's being done is after conception...
a single cell is extracted from the embryo within days of conception...
and this will be used for genetics testing...
the parents will then decide whether to keep it or to terminate the pregnancy...

the purposes of such procedure in current time...
1) to screen for disease
2) to create a healthy baby to help a sick sibling
3) to determine sex of the baby

needless to say, there's a lot of debate and ethical issues involved...

and as far as i am aware, one can't actually "design" traits of the baby...
i.e. there's no such thing (yet) of creating the combination of traits you want your baby to have...
but i have read before that this could be possible in future through genetic modification...
again, lots of ethical implications, and can we human really play god in this sense..?

[Fishingman]

My opinion on this, don't play God coz you're not! Plain and simple.

[LiLiaN]

i am in favour for natural events, but like the cases where one needs, say, matching bone marrow to save their child, is it then justified to create another to help his/her sibling?

[Sila]

just wrote a looong post and it got kantoled for some reason.. :(

anyway was saying that this is such a complicated topic. i think kochun's friends are facing reality and making a brave decision not to have kids due to the doctor's advise.

i have a friend who has a daughter (daughter's about 4 or 5 now i think) and this poor child has a genetic disease (sorry can't recall the name now). nothing to do with age (my friend was in her mid 20s when the baby was born). it was apparent soon after birth that the baby was not well, and for the next 2-3 years this kid was taken from doctor to doctor, and my friend (who's malaysian) finally got a specialist doctor from the US to diagnose the condition - it's a very rare genetic disease of some sort. at that point, she and her husband got tested, and it was found that they were both carriers of this gene. their daughter cannot walk, is in constant pain, and requires round the clock care and medical care. there is no real cure, all they can do is alleviate the constant pain although my friend hopes that research will open up new avenues for her daughter.

in light of this, she and her husband have decided not to have any more children since the odds of the next one having this condition are very high. i feel this is a very brave decision - we all want to have children, and we all want to hope that the next one will be fine, or that prayers to God will give us a miracle, which is altogether possible, of course. but i think that my friends have made a decision based on fact and logic, and seeing their daughter in constant pain 24/7 is difficult, and even more difficult if they had another child with the same condition, and this time they would have knowingly chosen this.

i don't know what the prognosis is for my friend's daughter, but in spite of the odds, my friend and her husband are brave and loving, and regardless of the pain and suffering of this child, she knows she is so loved.

i've had conversations with different people about this friend of mine, and some have said that they are doubting god's greatness by opting not to have another kid as god can grant miracles. i disagree. god gave us brains and free will, and i don't believe that in situations like this you can say that they are making the wrong decision. every day they see their daughter's suffering. i think if they had another child and prayed 24/7 that all will be well, but it doesn't turn out the way they hope and their second child has the same condition (remember, odds are high that any kid of theirs will have this condition), can they live with themselves knowing that they KNOWINGLY had this child and "condemned" it to a lifetime of pain and suffering?

[athena]

i totally agree with you thinking. There are miracles happening. But God gave us free will and brains.....i like this quote very much!!