Bad Science in Movies

[dtchieng]

Star Wars, Day After Tomorrow, James Bond, Armageddon, etc. are examples of movies that Hollywood has served, peppered with "bad science".

This thread is for discussion on the misconceptions in science that the film makers unintentional or deliberate "mistakes". Hope you folks can contirbute your observations and share them.

However, good science comments are welcomed as well.

I'm compiling these "Science in Movies" as a "tool" for me to use in classroom.

Some examples of bad science n movies:

1) In Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, when Gen Grievous broke the transparisteel viewport of his bridge, the vacumn sucked everything outside. Then he jumps out of his ship, in deep space his cloak was flapping .. is that possible? What "wind"? ....
Some may argue and say the draft from the ships atmosphere that was being sucked out. Also can argue and say 'solar wind''...
What do you think?

2) In deep space, (Star Wars again...) can we hear the the starfighters screeching and wheezing? Can we hear the laser shots or explosions?

Any comments?

[euj]

with regards to point 2), i was thinking that too when i was watching the movie, but then i figured out that it's more for dramatic effect and to help the audience enjoy the film more. i guess if they stuck strictly to science, then you wouldn't hear anything outside the spaceship at all and it make for some pretty boring watching...

[dtchieng]

I think so too... that must be the "deliberate mistake".

However, when i was discussing this with my class of 14 year olds, one boy commented, "Teacher, if everything was quite, wouldn't that be eerie... you wouldn't know when someone is shot.. the fighter pilots would just die silently..."

[susucaplembu]

Star Wars, Day After Tomorrow, James Bond, Armageddon, etc. are examples of movies that Hollywood has served, peppered with "bad science".

This thread is for discussion on the misconceptions in science that the film makers unintentional or deliberate "mistakes". Hope you folks can contirbute your observations and share them.

However, good science comments are welcomed as well.

I'm compiling these "Science in Movies" as a "tool" for me to use in classroom.

Some examples of bad science n movies:

1) In Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, when Gen Grievous broke the transparisteel viewport of his bridge, the vacumn sucked everything outside. Then he jumps out of his ship, in deep space his cloak was flapping .. is that possible? What "wind"? ....
Some may argue and say the draft from the ships atmosphere that was being sucked out. Also can argue and say 'solar wind''...
What do you think?

2) In deep space, (Star Wars again...) can we hear the the starfighters screeching and wheezing? Can we hear the laser shots or explosions?

Any comments?

hmm, maybe long, long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, there is sound in space leh

[WaterFish]

wa lor... i suscribe to subu's idea... why... i ncertain other place in the vast universe you can even cast spell and people think it is perfectly normal... ^^

but seriously.... the sound in space may be attributed to the sound travelling trough something called radio... and the flaps definitely due to the vacuuum sucking air

[Hisham]

Although Obi-Wan announced that they were "entering atmosphere" upon the Invisible Hand's planetfall, it's widely thought that he actually meant the troposphere because according to a lot of other sources, including Industrial Light and Magic, that the Battle of Coruscant occured under the planetary shields in the upper atmosphere, which explains why some ships have fire and smoke coming out of them. Not actually sea level pressure, but there is air.

Anyway for a somewhat okay review of bad science in movies, check out Phil Plait's site: Bad Astronomy (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/movies/index.html).

[shiruikage]

yes, many movies had their 'science' criticised. star wars is no exception. as to dtchieng's point 1, the flat can result from the air dats is being sucked out thru the hole, and for all intent and purposes, it still travels in the general direction as the metal dude.

as for the second point, even writers and revolutionary directors feels the need for some creative licence dont u think?

[Hisham]

as for the second point, even writers and revolutionary directors feels the need for some creative licence dont u think?
Yup. THere's even a term for it. Suspension of disbelief.

[Lava Gal]

sometimes its good 2 enjoy a movie without too much Queries...ok ok....dont throw stuffs at me, people! of coz its good to question..as long as it doesnt interfere u enjoying d show =) afterall...its juz a 3hr movie...and they need gimmicks to make it appealing & sell it

[shiruikage]

Yup. THere's even a term for it. Suspension of disbelief.
i belief it's "suspension of beliefe" as in u discard ur believes. :laugh:

[shiruikage]

sometimes its good 2 enjoy a movie without too much Queries...ok ok....dont throw stuffs at me, people! of coz its good to question..as long as it doesnt interfere u enjoying d show =) afterall...its juz a 3hr movie...and they need gimmicks to make it appealing & sell it
r u talking about lord of the ring? if so, i have a question......how the hell do they get from one place to another so fast? and the news travels even quicker!
behold exhibit A when the orcs go to helms deep, how did the elves know when to send reinforcements when they are so far away?

[dtchieng]

r u talking about lord of the ring? if so, i have a question......how the hell do they get from one place to another so fast? and the news travels even quicker!
behold exhibit A when the orcs go to helms deep, how did the elves know when to send reinforcements when they are so far away?

teleportal?
telepathy?

[vicky boy]

teleportal?
telepathy?
teleport???? mana ada kat LOTR
telepathy yes...

[shiruikage]

teleport???? mana ada kat LOTR
telepathy yes...
then they must be able to see into the future as well. coz from saruman's castle to helms deep is closer than from wateva place the elf came from (the woods of loren-something???) either that or i am seriously mistaken and have to watch it all over again. :huh:

[Hisham]

then they must be able to see into the future as well. coz from saruman's castle to helms deep is closer than from wateva place the elf came from (the woods of loren-something???) either that or i am seriously mistaken and have to watch it all over again. :huh:
That's probably the reason why there were NO ELVES at the Battle of Helm's Deep at all in the book.

[shiruikage]

That's probably the reason why there were NO ELVES at the Battle of Helm's Deep at all in the book.
really? shit holliwood...just like them to twist the stories... :(

[WaterFish]

That's probably the reason why there were NO ELVES at the Battle of Helm's Deep at all in the book.

do we discount legolas then?? he was there right... sheesh... cannot remember... last time i read the book is ~10 years ago... ><

[WaterFish]

That's probably the reason why there were NO ELVES at the Battle of Helm's Deep at all in the book.

do we discount legolas then?? he was there right...? sheesh... cannot remember... last time i read the book is ~10 years ago... >< hehe... Christopher's books ^^ he was soo kind to lend me his book ^^

[Hisham]

do we discount legolas then?? he was there right...? sheesh... cannot remember... last time i read the book is ~10 years ago... >< hehe... Christopher's books ^^ he was soo kind to lend me his book ^^
Oh yeah. Except Legolas. Hee hee.

[dreamwh]

That's probably the reason why there were NO ELVES at the Battle of Helm's Deep at all in the book.


Somemore they make Haldir leading the elves into battle... apekebende??!! Haldir was an interpreter (as in ahli alih bahasa) sort of Elf if i remember correctly. Lagi best they go kill the bugger at Helms Deep... Peter Jackson ni lebih-lebih le.

[Hisham]

Okay, although they don't explain this in the movie, does anyone know why General Grievous' ship plunged towards Coruscant when they lose power after the broadside battle with a Venator-class Star Destroyer, and why being at that altitude it didn't maintain an unpowered orbit around the planet?

[shiruikage]

Okay, although they don't explain this in the movie, does anyone know why General Grievous' ship plunged towards Coruscant when they lose power after the broadside battle with a Venator-class Star Destroyer, and why being at that altitude it didn't maintain an unpowered orbit around the planet?
normally they shouldn't, but i think they got decelerated somewhat by all the explosions and thus slowing them down sufficiently enuf to plunge them into the surface. At least that's how i see it.

[dtchieng]

Okay, although they don't explain this in the movie, does anyone know why General Grievous' ship plunged towards Coruscant when they lose power after the broadside battle with a Venator-class Star Destroyer, and why being at that altitude it didn't maintain an unpowered orbit around the planet?

My 2 kupang... these are all just probabilities lah..

Like what someone said earlier, the Battle of Coruscant may have taken place at the upper atmosphere of the planet, rather than in Deep Sapce.

With the explosions and bettery from the Star Destroyer, it's possible that the General G's ship was thrown out of it's orbital path. The momentum and inertia of that action may cause it to hurtle just a little bit more towards the planet's surface, and being close enough for the planet's gravitatioal force to pull it down.

If the Battle had taken place in Deep Space, then the momentum and inertia may cause it to drift forever into... er... deeper space... :laugh: :o

Apa macam? boleh terima?

[Hisham]

Good replies both... :D

But from the way..

1) all the ships see to be moving about in all attitudes and all velocities

2) Coruscant's surface doesn't move at all beneath them (like videos of shuttle orbiters of Earth surface in low orbit)

... I would think they're not even in a proper 1g low orbit, which would simulate zero gravity. There must be another propulsion system, such as anti-gravity that's keeping them all in the brawl exactly above a single point above Coruscant.

So, in effect they all should be falling, but they're not because their anti-gravity drives (aka repulsorlifts) are on. I theorize the Invisible Hand's repulsorlifts shut down during the broadside battle, which caused the ship to succumb to gravity. And without a proper orbit it fell like a stone.

[WaterFish]

Naahh...... all you theories are wrong..... the battle took place in the mind of the director and produced either on the floor of a studio using models or in the cpu of a computer running a program that render the battle ^^

[dtchieng]

Good replies both... :D

But from the way..

1) all the ships see to be moving about in all attitudes and all velocities

2) Coruscant's surface doesn't move at all beneath them (like videos of shuttle orbiters of Earth surface in low orbit)


So, in effect they all should be falling, but they're not because their anti-gravity drives (aka repulsorlifts) are on. I theorize the Invisible Hand's repulsorlifts shut down during the broadside battle, which caused the ship to succumb to gravity. And without a proper orbit it fell like a stone.

Anti-G + Change in momentum = Crash into planet
I think boleh terima...

Aiyah! Ko-ko! Why u must be so anti-anti.. what's the word... why must you pour cld water!!1 :mad:

[shiruikage]

a very nice explaination hisham. i've forgotten all about the repulsorlifts. but of coz, they only work near surfaces do they not?

[WaterFish]

yup... repulsor only works near surfaces... any surfaces...

[shiruikage]

yup... repulsor only works near surfaces... any surfaces...
and the upper atmosphere is of course...far from any surface. therefore it must be assumed that repulsorlift is not at use here.

again assuming it took place in the upper atmosphere, the ship could be keeping powered orbit around the planet; ie: to maintain minimum orbital velocities, engine power is used. probably thats y when the engine cuts out, the pull of gravity wins.

[Hisham]

Actually repulsors work against the center of gravity of anything that has gravitational pull. If it only works against surfaces then high-altitude vehicles like the cloud car on Bespin & the various speeders at Coruscant can't fly so high.

[Hisham]

again assuming it took place in the upper atmosphere, the ship could be keeping powered orbit around the planet; ie: to maintain minimum orbital velocities, engine power is used. probably thats y when the engine cuts out, the pull of gravity wins.

To maintain a powered low planetary orbit, if you look down you'll see the planet's surface spinning very fast beneath us. That doesn't seem to be the case for teh ships involved in the battle. Furthermore, if their engines fail because of the broadside exchange, it will take quite some time for the ship to lose its inertia and fall.

So, repulsors must have been in use somehow.

[shiruikage]

Actually repulsors work against the center of gravity of anything that has gravitational pull. If it only works against surfaces then high-altitude vehicles like the cloud car on Bespin & the various speeders at Coruscant can't fly so high.
not true actually. please note that in the extended universe,when han and chewie repairs the falcon, they tested it by turning it on and letting the repulsorlift support the entire weight of the ship. they made a comment like if the repulsorlift can support the falcon alone, it should be okay. from here, it can be concluded that repulsorlifts oni works near solid/high density fluid surfaces oni. IF it can work at any altitude from a gravitational source as u postulated, it power should be enuf to support it at any altitude, and not sink down like the book described.

the bespin cloud car i believe uses hovercraft principles, but not repulsorlifts.

[shiruikage]

To maintain a powered low planetary orbit, if you look down you'll see the planet's surface spinning very fast beneath us. That doesn't seem to be the case for teh ships involved in the battle. Furthermore, if their engines fail because of the broadside exchange, it will take quite some time for the ship to lose its inertia and fall.

So, repulsors must have been in use somehow.
not true also. there is an alternative explaination. geosynchronous orbit. if the orbital velocity at that particular altitue can be matched exactly to the spin of the planet, then the planet would appear not to have moved at all. before u say that geosynchronous orbits only has one distance, let me clarify; geosynchrosity happens at all altitude. only difference is the power required to maintain that orbit. in the movie's case, geosynchronous orbit is maintained by powered flight (like i said before engine power to provide minuimun velocity) and in the absence of such power, the ship in question will plunge towards the planet. Note that it actually drop straight down, and the planet moved beneathed it to create the illusion of forward movement.

[Hisham]

the bespin cloud car i believe uses hovercraft principles, but not repulsorlifts.
Hovercraft = surface effect vehicle ... note the word surface. Plus there are no thrusters underneath cloud cars large enough to support its weight.

[Hisham]

not true also. there is an alternative explaination. geosynchronous orbit.
Geosynchronous orbit is 35,786 kilometers above the earth's surface. The earth's diameter is 12,756 km.. That's almost 3x its diameter. That's not low orbit. Looking at Coruscant's gravity, it should be earth sized, else humans can't survive there.

[shiruikage]

Geosynchronous orbit is 35,786 kilometers above the earth's surface. The earth's diameter is 12,756 km.. That's almost 3x its diameter. That's not low orbit. Looking at Coruscant's gravity, it should be earth sized, else humans can't survive there.
see my previous post on this...
before u say that geosynchronous orbits only has one distance, let me clarify; geosynchrosity happens at all altitude. only difference is the power required to maintain that orbit.
that 36k km altitude is the only orbit when the radial velocity of the spacecraft balances the gravity forces excerted by earth at the minimum power setting. like i said, any altitude can be a geo (or to be more terminologically correct, planet)-synchronous orbit. there are just two factors to consider, radial velocity and gravity force balancing. if i say i wan to maintain an earth-synchrounous orbit at say...500km, i just have to know at what radialvelocity i have to move at that point and since this is slower than orbit holding velocity, another force component must be added to counteract the gravitic force. when these two forces are at equilibrium, powered orbit is achieved.

[shiruikage]

wait wait, i retract my argument about starships not using repulsorlifts. just had my facts updated. i apologize.

[Hisham]

wait wait, i retract my argument about starships not using repulsorlifts. just had my facts updated. i apologize.
Man. That was fun. Mesti dtchieng pening kepala. Thanks for a great debate, shiru.

[Hisham]

see my previous post on this...

that 36k km altitude is the only orbit when the radial velocity of the spacecraft balances the gravity forces excerted by earth at the minimum power setting. like i said, any altitude can be a geo (or to be more terminologically correct, planet)-synchronous orbit. there are just two factors to consider, radial velocity and gravity force balancing. if i say i wan to maintain an earth-synchrounous orbit at say...500km, i just have to know at what radialvelocity i have to move at that point and since this is slower than orbit holding velocity, another force component must be added to counteract the gravitic force. when these two forces are at equilibrium, powered orbit is achieved.
I stand corrected on this. Sorry to have not read your post properly.

[shiruikage]

Man. That was fun. Mesti dtchieng pening kepala. Thanks for a great debate, shiru.
;) it's always fun when two like minds are debating. thank you for the great argument also. u win this of coz.

[Fulat]

Star Wars, Day After Tomorrow, James Bond, Armageddon, etc. are examples of movies that Hollywood has served, peppered with "bad science".

This thread is for discussion on the misconceptions in science that the film makers unintentional or deliberate "mistakes". Hope you folks can contirbute your observations and share them.

However, good science comments are welcomed as well.

I'm compiling these "Science in Movies" as a "tool" for me to use in classroom.

Some examples of bad science n movies:

1) In Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, when Gen Grievous broke the transparisteel viewport of his bridge, the vacumn sucked everything outside. Then he jumps out of his ship, in deep space his cloak was flapping .. is that possible? What "wind"? ....
Some may argue and say the draft from the ships atmosphere that was being sucked out. Also can argue and say 'solar wind''...
What do you think?

2) In deep space, (Star Wars again...) can we hear the the starfighters screeching and wheezing? Can we hear the laser shots or explosions?

Any comments?

Answer to your Question No.2 = Yes! If you have THX certified sound system.

[Dino]

Answer to your Question No.2 = Yes! If you have THX certified sound system.

If i am correct, if you put on pasar malam 1 ringgit headphone also can hear. :p

[Fulat]

If i am correct, if you put on pasar malam 1 ringgit headphone also can hear. :p

True also! but sound not so dramatic. George Lucas sure wont approved.

[Dino]

True also! but sound not so dramatic. George Lucas sure wont approved.

Ya hoor... :o

:laugh:

[shiruikage]

let's start another movie with bad science...mars attack anyone? :laugh: actually, batman apa macam?